tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-29364304.post8978385224703686476..comments2023-04-12T04:13:00.415-05:00Comments on Tom's Thoughts: Who is Lord?TomGrayhttp://www.blogger.com/profile/06578393509662485657noreply@blogger.comBlogger34125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-29364304.post-77919537859435678512008-11-11T04:11:00.000-06:002008-11-11T04:11:00.000-06:00Good for people to know.Good for people to know.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-29364304.post-21192973751344425162007-04-12T20:15:00.000-05:002007-04-12T20:15:00.000-05:00"Doug,As you discern the good of God, how do you h..."Doug,<BR/>As you discern the good of God, how do you handle the times when God provides/allows painful discipline?"<BR/><BR/>Tom: sorry I took so long to respond to your question. In my understanding at the moment, the experiences of painful discipline from God arise from two factors. One is that God created us with free will - at least enough free will for our lives to be meaningful. We will sometimes (often?) use this free will wrongly, injuring those around around us, destroying relationships, essentially sinfully. <BR/><BR/>In these times when we do wrong, God allows the consequences to come. If God did not, if God insulated us from everything, we would never learn and grow.<BR/><BR/>Because the world is not a just place, sometimes these lessons are too heavy to ever seem fair or proportionate. A poor person can make a lot fewer mistakes than a wealthy one. The powerful have a greater margin of error. These things are just reminders that while God is good, we are not, and also reminders that we are called to serve the least in all things and never to use our power for our own glorification.Douglas Underhillhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/02215736448645573566noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-29364304.post-49838788922301292612007-04-10T14:30:00.000-05:002007-04-10T14:30:00.000-05:00Do you believe in God? Do you believe God created ...Do you believe in God? <BR/><BR/>Do you believe God created the universe?<BR/><BR/>Do you believe this universe is your reality?<BR/><BR/>Do you believe in God construction of reality?<BR/><BR/>Mark P.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-29364304.post-89906298988453084292007-04-10T12:11:00.000-05:002007-04-10T12:11:00.000-05:00Dear Tom,I've articulated my hermeneutic before on...Dear Tom,<BR/><BR/>I've articulated my hermeneutic before on this site. I've laid out my reasoning and quoted supporting scriptures. You've disagreed at every turn. There is no point in articulating it again.<BR/><BR/>If you're really interested in understanding my perspective simply go back and reread what I've posted since last summer. Do the same with other liberals and their posts, if you're really interested.<BR/><BR/>But if all you want to do is construct straw men in order to knock them down, don't waste your time.<BR/><BR/>Yours in Christ,<BR/>MarkAnonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-29364304.post-86843263597838660542007-04-10T07:14:00.000-05:002007-04-10T07:14:00.000-05:00Jodie, et alThanks for bring the discussion back t...Jodie, et al<BR/><BR/>Thanks for bring the discussion back to the main point of all this... and nicely pointing back the title of Tom's post: "Who is Lord?".<BR/><BR/>Who is Lord, Who is 'right' as you say)? Can a community 'only be right or wrong in the context of an ever greater community' OR is it in the context of the will of a Living and Supreme God. <BR/><BR/>Who is Lord? The 'largest community', or a Living and Loving God. <BR/><BR/>I guess it depends if there actually IS a Living and Supreme God. As Paul said, if Christ didn't actually die and rise per the scriptures then our hope truly is in vain. Praise God, it actually did happened and He actually is seeking to save His children. <BR/><BR/>The Kirk has chosen to follow the Lord, call Him Lord and seek His will for our lives thru his Word. Imagine that, acting as if the Bible were True. We call that 'right'.... no mater how much larger any other community may be.<BR/><BR/>Of course, it is possible there is room for reasonable to people to disagree on the meaning of words, etc. But the fundamental question is the 'Lord' the biggest community or the Living God?<BR/><BR/>FordAnonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-29364304.post-64897550180377219912007-04-09T20:27:00.000-05:002007-04-09T20:27:00.000-05:00Tom,I think what you meant to ask is whether Aric'...Tom,<BR/><BR/>I think what you meant to ask is whether Aric's views are technically wrong within the context of your community. The community can only be right or wrong within the context of an ever greater community. <BR/><BR/>(Complements of Peter Berger's "Social construction of Reality")<BR/><BR/>JodieAnonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-29364304.post-1338562394038229492007-04-09T19:17:00.000-05:002007-04-09T19:17:00.000-05:00Tom,Only because I was directly addressed, I'll re...Tom,<BR/><BR/>Only because I was directly addressed, I'll respond in brief.<BR/><BR/>Your community absolutely has the ability and right to consider my views wrong. However, our communities are not hermetically sealed. They overlap. So your community's view is open to critique from those who are in relationship with it to varying degrees.<BR/><BR/>There is no trouble with disagreement. I can disagree with you and still be in community with you. The trouble comes when that disagreement is absolutized into fundamental principles which close down all dialogue and therefore all possibility of community.<BR/><BR/>It is through the renunciation of coercive power over our fellow human beings that we can begin to live out the gospel in a kingdom of all God's people where only God is judge and we are all sinners in need of grace. Thus, I can accept your view as the honest attempt of a faithful man and experienced pastor to understand God, while rejecting your right to assert that view over others.Aric Clarkhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/15241157655075444268noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-29364304.post-14247598183074250872007-04-09T18:54:00.000-05:002007-04-09T18:54:00.000-05:00Aric,I take it you would accept (vis-a-vis deconst...Aric,<BR/>I take it you would accept (vis-a-vis deconstructionism) that your response means that my community is technically right in declaring your views wrong?<BR/>TomTomGrayhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/06578393509662485657noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-29364304.post-41606870748907108992007-04-09T17:43:00.000-05:002007-04-09T17:43:00.000-05:00I have not heard the term deconstructionist so I a...I have not heard the term <I>deconstructionist</I> so I am trying to understand it. My understanding is that statements may not be what they appear because of assumptions.<BR/><BR/>For example:<BR/><BR/>Statement 1: 3+3=6<BR/>Statement 2: 3+3=10<BR/><BR/>On the face of it, Statement 1 is true and Statement 2 is false.<BR/><BR/>But, you could say that Statement 1 is nonsense and Statement 2 is true, if... you use base 6 (ET with only 6 digits would do this).<BR/><BR/>So our <I>cultural</I> bias as humans makes what seems obvious as something different in meaning.<BR/><BR/>My reaction to this, is that when you make the statements above, the assumption that you are using base 10 is so obvious that it does not need to be explicitly stated.<BR/><BR/>Does <B>deconstruction</B> work in the real world? What if a deconstructionist asked for his tax refund in binary instead of decimal? A $1,000 refund would become $1,111,101,000. LOL!<BR/><BR/>Unless a deconstuctionist has a well reasoned explanation for their interpreting something different than "what it says", they should be prepared for the type of reaction the IRS would give to $1 billion refund.liberty4uhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/10295774960378359130noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-29364304.post-71028335741952707832007-04-08T21:14:00.000-05:002007-04-08T21:14:00.000-05:00Mark,The authoritative interpretation of 1978 was ...Mark,<BR/>The authoritative interpretation of 1978 was the first official reaction to the GLBT movement. I've lost count of how many times the issue has been re-raised and responded to, since the GLBT agenda, logically, is to win.<BR/><BR/>I'm amazed that you find scripture to support the idea that homosexual acts are not sinful. I've found most who say so to use a very narrow application of a hermeneutic of "love." Is your viewpoint different?<BR/>TomTomGrayhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/06578393509662485657noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-29364304.post-75618129880315123852007-04-08T01:51:00.000-05:002007-04-08T01:51:00.000-05:00Tom,You caught me. I am a deconstructionist. One a...Tom,<BR/><BR/>You caught me. I am a deconstructionist. One almost has to be if they acknowledge the influence of anyone working in any academic discipline since 1950. <BR/><BR/>"deal with what the verse says" is a misleadingly simplistic statement. The verse doesn't "say" anything, it is text on a page. It has no agency. It has not inherent meaning. All of its meaning is given to it in the process of interpretation. This does not mean that interpretation is random or arbitrary because it always happens in a community, with a history and in view of personal experience. No one can escape the fact that before we open our mouths to articulate our understanding of anything it must first be processed through the filters of our own bias.<BR/><BR/>Furthermore, to say "that's an interpretation" in my view, is not dismissive at all. It is simply the truth. All statements of meaning are interpretive. The task is to attempt and distinguish between good interpretations and bad ones, something which can only be done in community and not by appealing to an arbitrary standard.<BR/><BR/>At this point I think I've said enough on this issue. I thank you for being hospitable and I warmly invite you and any others reading this blog to continue conversing with me on my own blog or elsewhere in the blogosphere.Aric Clarkhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/15241157655075444268noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-29364304.post-82413375242715939452007-04-08T01:19:00.000-05:002007-04-08T01:19:00.000-05:00TomYou are a great pastor for leading your flock o...Tom<BR/>You are a great pastor for leading your flock out of P(olitically)C(orrect) USA. You are to be commended for standing up to the wisdom of this age. I hope your congregation knows how lucky they are. God bless you and have a great Easter!Jim Jordanhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/12456957270007304493noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-29364304.post-19180081230738827142007-04-07T17:38:00.000-05:002007-04-07T17:38:00.000-05:00Dear Tom,You said, "the homosexual issue was not r...Dear Tom,<BR/><BR/>You said, "the homosexual issue was not raised by conservatives but progressives trying to change the historic interpretation of Scripture. The hypocrisy lies in those who raise an issue and then protest the fact that others respond."<BR/><BR/>By the time I was old enough to weigh in on the matter, the Authoritative Interpretation of 1978 had come and was long gone. At the time of the AI, I had been taught -- and believed -- that homosexuality was a sin. It was only after studying scripture that my view changed. Or put differently, scripture changed my view on homosexuality. I now believe that homosexuality, per se, is not a sin.<BR/><BR/>Tom, I don't think anyone who supports LGBT ordination is protesting that those who don't favor it are responding to us. We simply disagree with your interpretation of scripture.<BR/><BR/>May you know the blessings of our risen Sovereign and Savior Jesus Christ this Pascha.<BR/><BR/>Yours in Christ,<BR/>MarkAnonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-29364304.post-34571716074093196442007-04-07T15:58:00.000-05:002007-04-07T15:58:00.000-05:00Aric,You sound like a deconstructionist. Deal with...Aric,<BR/>You sound like a deconstructionist. Deal with what the verse says, rather than dismissing it under the mantra "that's just an interpretation."<BR/><BR/>Also, the homosexual issue was not raised by conservatives but progressives trying to change the historic interpretation of Scripture. The hypocrisy lies in those who raise an issue and then protest the fact that others respond.<BR/>TomTomGrayhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/06578393509662485657noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-29364304.post-28626757563200806692007-04-06T17:40:00.000-05:002007-04-06T17:40:00.000-05:00Dear Pamela,Quoting 1 John 2:20-27 doesn't change ...Dear Pamela,<BR/><BR/>Quoting 1 John 2:20-27 doesn't change the fact that you come across as taking the authority upon yourself to determine who has and who has not received the anointing of the Lord.<BR/><BR/>The reality still stands: when you experience what you believe to be an anointing from the Lord to understand scripture, you claim it. When anyone else experiennces what they believe to be an anointing from the Lord to understand scripture, and that understanding differs from your own, you call them false.<BR/><BR/>I say again, it seems that we have a difference of opinions. May the anointing of the Lord unite us in Christ even in the midst of our differences.<BR/><BR/>To the glory of God our Creator, Jesus Christ our crucified and risen Sovereign, and the Holy Spirit our Paraclete.<BR/><BR/>Yours in Christ,<BR/>MarkAnonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-29364304.post-18611888185179124922007-04-06T17:12:00.000-05:002007-04-06T17:12:00.000-05:00I look at God as a parent. That means I am a chil...I look at God as a parent. That means I am a child. If a parent gives a child a gift, and the child rejects that gift, it grieves the parent.<BR/><BR/>If God is not just a philosophical or abstract idea, then it would make sense that He would communicate with us. As Christians, we believe He did with the ultimate communication being to send His son to die for our sins. We get our knowledge about this event from the Bible. It has been accepted as a reliable source for information about God and His nature. If we believe that God did all this, it makes sense that God would preserve His communication through the Bible as His Word, not mans.<BR/><BR/>But, as man, we rejected His son, rejected His Word, and rejected His gifts to us. To reject the Bible, in my opinion, is to reject Christ. To reject a spouse of the opposite sex, rejects the Bible, which says that this was the plan. If the Bible is correct, homosexuality is a rejection of a gift from a loving parent, and as such, grieves this parent.liberty4uhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/10295774960378359130noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-29364304.post-25213869216927289072007-04-06T13:32:00.000-05:002007-04-06T13:32:00.000-05:00Pamela,There is no way to get away from our own ag...Pamela,<BR/><BR/>There is no way to get away from our own agency in interpreting scripture. Even by simply quoting you are interpreting, because you are making a judgment that a particular text applies to a particular situation whereas other texts do not. We must take responsibility for our role in reading scripture or we run the serious danger of mistaking our own ideas for the Word of God.<BR/><BR/>Nan & Pamela,<BR/><BR/>IF we as a church actually developed a consistent stance vis a vis which sins were serious enough to merit exclusion from ordained ministry and there could be any assurance that fairness and honesty were the guiding principles rather than personal bias and bigotry, then I would accept your stance as principled even though I disagree. Jesus' harshest words are for hypocrites and religious leaders who pick on the sins of others while failing to lead righteous lives themselves. Homosexuality has become for the church like ritual impurity was for the pharisees of Jesus' day - we are so focused on it, to the exclusion of everything else that it masks our own failings and complicity in injustice. Jesus response to this situation was to violate the sensibilities of the religious elite of his day in order to draw their attention to the far more important issues of the suffering around them. <BR/><BR/>I do not hold homosexuality to be a sin in the slightest. However, my personal theological judgments are only my own and I could set aside my will for the wisdom of the church IF the church weren't so obviously hypocritical.Aric Clarkhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/15241157655075444268noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-29364304.post-39092182820820378052007-04-06T12:04:00.000-05:002007-04-06T12:04:00.000-05:00Aric - Just to clarify, in your response to Pamel...Aric - <BR/>Just to clarify, in your response to Pamela...were you saying that becasue the church is doing a poor job of policing adulterous/heterosexual sinners in leadership that it should therefore allow homosexuals to be ordained?<BR/><BR/>I would prefer we stepped up and asked all who are living in blatant repentant sin to step down from leadership...isnt that what Christ calls us to do?<BR/><BR/>I don't expect anyone to be perfect or sinless just repentant and trying to live as the Lord asks us to and those in leadership ARE called to a higher standard...<BR/><BR/>Paul tells Timothy in 1 Timothy 3:2-7 <BR/><BR/>2Now the overseer must be above reproach, the husband of but one wife, temperate, self-controlled, respectable, hospitable, able to teach, 3not given to drunkenness, not violent but gentle, not quarrelsome, not a lover of money. 4He must manage his own family well and see that his children obey him with proper respect. 5(If anyone does not know how to manage his own family, how can he take care of God's church?) 6He must not be a recent convert, or he may become conceited and fall under the same judgment as the devil. 7He must also have a good reputation with outsiders, so that he will not fall into disgrace and into the devil's trap. <BR/><BR/>Nan ClarkAnonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-29364304.post-61276690360702593352007-04-06T07:03:00.000-05:002007-04-06T07:03:00.000-05:00Mark,I just quoted the Bible. It says that we hav...Mark,<BR/><BR/>I just quoted the Bible. It says that we have an anointing or unction from the Holy One and He teaches us all things. When you have a teacher of any kind they teach what they want to. He (the Holy One) will only speak what He wants said. He is not confused. I just quoted 1 John 2. No interpretation from me.<BR/><BR/>Aric,<BR/><BR/>There are probably groups that do not deal with heterosexual sin in the same manner they do homosexual sin. In some circles there is a looking down on homosexual sin like it is any different in the sight of God. I believe that is changing. If church leadership does not deal correctly with sin in leadership God will take care of it Himself. This happened in 1 Cor 5 where (1) a man was judged for sexual sin with his father's wife AND (2) the congregation rebuked for rejoicing at this man's sin. <BR/><BR/>The Bible also says in Proverbs that one of the things God hates is a proud look. I see your point:)Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-29364304.post-62204738565742185492007-04-05T16:44:00.000-05:002007-04-05T16:44:00.000-05:00Doug,As you discern the good of God, how do you ha...Doug,<BR/>As you discern the good of God, how do you handle the times when God provides/allows painful discipline?<BR/>TomTomGrayhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/06578393509662485657noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-29364304.post-82794172794496925302007-04-05T16:42:00.000-05:002007-04-05T16:42:00.000-05:00Jodie,My "construct" of God comes through the Apos...Jodie,<BR/>My "construct" of God comes through the Apostles' Creed, Nicene Creed, and the Bible. Most conservatives such as I are aware that we construct an understanding of God. Since we believe Scripture is the revealed Word of God, we depend on it instead of our own invented ideas. Progressives who reject Scripture have no place to start but on their own.<BR/>TomTomGrayhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/06578393509662485657noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-29364304.post-28137576058465237642007-04-05T16:07:00.000-05:002007-04-05T16:07:00.000-05:00Pamela,You are right that homosexuals are the only...Pamela,<BR/><BR/>You are right that homosexuals are the only group of fallen human beings that are receiving major attention for wanting to be treated equally with the rest of fallen humanity. Adulterers and fornicators already have official approval to be ministers in the church of God and far from crying out against it, most of the church (presbyterian and otherwise) is doing a horrible job of even acknowledging the rampant abuse of authority and sexual misconduct that characterizes the ministry. Exclusion of homosexuals from ordained ministry is a sham meant to disguise our own inadequacy for holy service to our savior.Aric Clarkhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/15241157655075444268noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-29364304.post-51239366460389545712007-04-05T15:18:00.001-05:002007-04-05T15:18:00.001-05:00Dear Pamela,You said, "We do NOT choose how to int...Dear Pamela,<BR/><BR/>You said, "We do NOT choose how to interpret the word of God. The anointing from the Lord interprets the word of God for us."<BR/><BR/>Though we liberals do not often use the phrase "anointing from the Lord" we understand that God guides us in our interpretations of scripture. Indeed, we pray for God's guidance. We desire God's guidance. We seek God's guidance.<BR/><BR/>Yet because some of our interpretations differ from yours, YOU say that we are not anointed. When you speak up for your interpretation, YOU claim that you are anointed. When others speak up for their interpretations, and those interpretations differ from yours, YOU claim that they are cramming their interpretations down your throat. That strikes me as a bit egotistical.<BR/><BR/>I was not aware that God granted you sole authority to speak on God's behalf. I was not aware that God appointed you solely to determine who is and who is not anointed. I don't claim that authority for myself. Very few liberals I know claim that authority.<BR/><BR/>Extremist conservatives claim loudly that liberals are leading the Church down the road to perdition. I have yet to hear one liberal make the same claim about conservatives. Perhaps I am wrong, and some liberals have made that claim, but I have yet to hear it. That doesn't mean that liberals are better than conservatives. It simply means that we tend to see the value of diversity among God's people, and we don't tend to look for the devil behind every fence post.<BR/><BR/>Liberals and conservatives: we study the same scripture. We are equally dedicated to understand it. We seek to serve the same Triune God. It seems that we have a difference of opinion. I pray that we may yet find our unity in Christ.<BR/><BR/>Yours in Christ,<BR/>MarkAnonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-29364304.post-86423853598989267222007-04-05T15:18:00.000-05:002007-04-05T15:18:00.000-05:00Tom,Just because a group may be small in proportio...Tom,<BR/><BR/>Just because a group may be small in proportion to the whole does not mean they should succomb to denigration, isolation, and discrimination. I do not for a minute buy the argument that those numbers are accurate, but even if they are, so what? The full inclusion of GLBT is an issue for the whole church to grapple with as a corporate body. <BR/><BR/>Injustice for anyone is injustice for everyone.<BR/><BR/>BillAnonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-29364304.post-15167253277345255862007-04-05T11:33:00.000-05:002007-04-05T11:33:00.000-05:00As a long time Federal GM employee in Personnel wo...As a long time Federal GM employee in Personnel work, now retired, there are some issues we all must face regardless of how we feel about this issue from a moral or theological standpoint. First, sexual orientation is a protected category just as age, sex, race etc. It is obvious that Jesus looked down the road almost 2000 years and found this to be a protected category as far as approaching those who were "different" ie; samaritans, at least one prostitute, a tax collector, and probably others. Now what do we do with these examples and what did he do with them? Well, in each instance, he loved them, took them in, asked that they believe in the one true God, asked that they believe in him as the Messiah, perhaps that they be Baptised, and that they repent and change. It is at this crucial point that we diverge in our thinking. Did repent and change mean attempting to leave a sinful lifestyle. I believe it did. Many others believe for whatever reason it did not. If we believe change meant change, then we have the obligation to provide change processes. I have only seen one Church in my entire 67 years that made much of an effort in that process, a Church that offers professional help and a major support group. If we are going to take the stance that most of us reading this blog probably take, we have an absolute obligation to Love Those Who Are Different, welcome them to our midst, and provide help for change. I see little discussion in this arena. Unfortunately I see less real work. I would invite readers to look at the website for First Family Church in Overland park Ks. at FFC.org. FFC is by the way a mainline denomination Church although you have to hunt for the affiliation, they are I believe a Southern Baptist Church. I don't go there because we live too far away, but we have attended and this Church is an example of a welcoming, forgiving group that offers real help for change which all of us need to do. John WestAnonymousnoreply@blogger.com