tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-29364304.post7549753117806043627..comments2023-04-12T04:13:00.415-05:00Comments on Tom's Thoughts: The Silence is DeafeningTomGrayhttp://www.blogger.com/profile/06578393509662485657noreply@blogger.comBlogger10125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-29364304.post-30388002739122998222006-10-21T08:59:00.000-05:002006-10-21T08:59:00.000-05:00Tom,
I don't want to be one to place blame, but y...Tom,<br /><br />I don't want to be one to place blame, but you have to analyze what has happened, identify what went wrong, so that it can be fixed in the future.<br /><br />When looking at where the PCUSA is now, in the local Presbytery, there is a minister who has publically stated that he has "officiate at holy unions for gay and lesbian couples." Although this is a "conservative" presbytery, I know of no action being taken against him.<br /><br />First, the ordained ministers should be the first to look to for leadership. They would be the best to investigate and, if necessary, take the proper steps of discipline.<br /><br />But where are they?<br /><br />Having left the PCUSA, I think of what would have happened if I had stayed. I would have felt duty bound as an elder, to pick up the responsibilities that I feel the ordained ministers dropped in the Presbytery. I would not go looking for trouble, but, if I had knowledge about such actions, would have to take the proper steps according to the BOO.<br /><br />What would have happened if the Kirk has stayed in the denomination? I think that those that are indignant about you not staying would be wishing you had left.<br /><br />I am trying to imagine what would things could have been done within the process.<br /><br />First, no secrets. No secret meetings. Nothing done that would not be open to the public. Tapes and transcripts could be made and distributed on the internet. Your blog would have ten times the information and interest. <br /><br />To work through the system, the best order of recourse would have to go through the judicial process of the denomination. There would be lots of cases. The Kirk could use the system the way the critics propose. And they would regret they did.<br /><br />But does this really promote the true Church? I don't think so. And to better serve Christ, leaving is probably the best course.<br /><br />Go out and spread the Good News!Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-29364304.post-91509276948087709772006-10-21T00:22:00.000-05:002006-10-21T00:22:00.000-05:00"By making it easy to leave they made it compellin..."By making it easy to leave they made it compelling to stay."<br /><br />I've seen comments similar to the above applied to Google Mail. The idea is that Google, by being open to the needs and wishes of its GMail members, instead of trying to "lock them in", has actually prospered beyond what it otherwise could have.<br /><br />How is that idea similar to what is going on in the church? How is it different?<br /><br />-james.<br /><br />P.S. Here's a link to an essay that doesn't mention GMail directly but refers to other technologies to explore the idea:<br /><br /><a href="http://blogs.sun.com/webmink/entry/freedom_to_leave">http://blogs.sun.com/webmink/entry/freedom_to_leave</a>Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-29364304.post-38812441387992351962006-10-20T23:36:00.000-05:002006-10-20T23:36:00.000-05:00Alan,
I am thankful for the NWAC and its strategy ...Alan,<br />I am thankful for the NWAC and its strategy team. My big frustration is with the tall steeple pastors. I believe that, if they spoke out about the treatment of dissenting churches, and kept the pressure on Louisville, there would be a change.<br />TomTomGrayhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/06578393509662485657noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-29364304.post-3431034634678074112006-10-20T23:33:00.000-05:002006-10-20T23:33:00.000-05:00Tom,
Although it's true that the New Wineskins As...Tom, <br />Although it's true that the New Wineskins Association, as a body, is being quiet at the moment, I don't think this will continue. As you can see from the Interim Report of NWAC, on Presbyweb today and the Layman a few days ago, there are serious matters being considered. <br />For many, this is a period of preparation. Some are waiting for the Constitution to be challenged and then not upheld by the PJC. Others are just quietly making plans.Many of us are keeping our congregations informed of what is going on, and are trying to discern when to speak out. The New Wineskins meeting in February should be very interesting.<br />Blessings on your ministry,<br />Alan TraffordAlan Traffordhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/07357653551113452950noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-29364304.post-69754383653713153802006-10-20T22:32:00.000-05:002006-10-20T22:32:00.000-05:00Why are they so quiet? Because you have spoken fo...Why are they so quiet? Because you have spoken for them, you are taking the flak, they can thank God in their prayers that the Kirk is taking the stand they are afraid to take. They want Kirk to fight the battle so the spotlight does not turn on them. <br /><br /> When people of principle stand up and speak, the silence does become deafening. These bystanders hope Kirk will emerge and survive, though bloodied and bandaged, as the PCUSA backs down and returns to their founding principles. Kirk stands alone on the rock. We shouldn't be surprised.<br /><br /> On the other hand, someone once said "One, with God, is a majority." David wasn't destroyed by Goliath. We all need to be more verbally supportive of our pastors, session, and congregation.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-29364304.post-73029587733492811112006-10-20T15:11:00.000-05:002006-10-20T15:11:00.000-05:00Tom,
While I don't think that a dialogue betw...Tom,<br /> While I don't think that a dialogue between you and EOP would have ended with "happily ever after", I do believe that the course of action your church has taken has hurt your process of disaffiliation. What you did and are doing is unfair and unpresbyterian. Once again I would urge you to reform your own approach to this process and take a more humble approach. This would not require you to soften or loosen your stance on biblical authority. Your comparison to Muslim terrorists is an interesting one considering that it was you who took preemptive, rash measures. It is you who is using this blog and the Tulsa press as your own Al-Jazeera. I do not think you or your congregation have malicious intentions, but in this case the way in which you have waged this battle is undoubtedly escalated the situation far beyond one of dissent, disaffiliation, and dismissal. Tom, PLEASE STOP THIS! The more and more you spout off the way you have been, the more and more isolated you will become. The deafening silence you speak of is as much your doing as any denominational body.Jimhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/06445804467742258536noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-29364304.post-51895134686344471702006-10-20T13:25:00.000-05:002006-10-20T13:25:00.000-05:00Well said, Tom. I believe more than ever that many...Well said, Tom. I believe more than ever that many of our denominational leaders and bureaucrats are wolves in sheep's clothing. In that regard, you may want to check out my article on "Savage Wolves" over at DeuteroQ.blogspot.com<br /><br />Blessings.Deutero Qhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/05900622047641663118noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-29364304.post-55219957888912025952006-10-20T11:34:00.000-05:002006-10-20T11:34:00.000-05:00Tom,
If that previous post I sent does not meet y...Tom,<br /><br />If that previous post I sent does not meet your new standards for posting, I don't know what would. There was no vitriol. This was the first response to the thread. It was on topic. I merely tried to state why I thought the silence was there on both sides. Your new-found censorship insures the increasing irrelevance and sure death of this blog.<br /><br />JCAnonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-29364304.post-84121432826096004902006-10-19T22:26:00.000-05:002006-10-19T22:26:00.000-05:00Tom,
As an elder in the PCUSA, I surmise the silen...Tom,<br />As an elder in the PCUSA, I surmise the silence is from the unspoken fear held by pastors that their members will increasingly leave the denomination and that will impact the pastor's economic livelihood.<br /><br />So instead of speaking up, most ministers are avoiding any discussion of the issues facing this denomination.<br /><br />As an elder and a member of a PCUSA church, I can easily leave to attend a church in which I have trust and confidence. <br /><br />Pastors have gotten to the point they are afraid of their own shadow. While there are some very radical pastors in the PCUSA, there are still many pastors with enough commonsense to realize that being silent is not the solution.<br /><br />The members and elders will follow a strong pastor who speaks the truth in love. On the other hand, the members and elders will leave behind those pastors who show their fear through their silence.<br /><br />Pastors need to make some gut-wrenching decisions. Otherwise, their legacy will be that they were the pastor of a church that closed.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-29364304.post-83466745132230918192006-10-19T21:51:00.000-05:002006-10-19T21:51:00.000-05:00Tom:
Thanks for keeping the world outside Tulsa up...Tom:<br />Thanks for keeping the world outside Tulsa up-to-date on what is happening to you and to the Kirk.<br /><br />Yes; the silence is deafening. I worship regularly at San Clemente Presbyterian Church in Orange County, California. After years of acting on my belief in Stay, Fight, Pray, I personally came to understand that the PCUSA was inexorably sliding into apostasy. Because I could not "shut up" as was my duty as an elder once decisions were made that I could not abide, I demitted. Then, when GA 217 adopted the PUP and included Recommendation 5, I renounced jurisdiction. As an individual there were no other meaningful avenues of public action. I tell you this for no other reason than to bolster the "atta boy" from this stranger yet Brother in Christ.<br /><br />Here in our own Presbytery we have a "Tall Steeple Pastor" who stepped off the reservation a few years back over the issue of withholding per capita. He was quickly and publically lassoed by Louiville and hasn't been heard much of since on matters of polity or PCUSA apostasy.<br /><br />The glue that fastens too many congregations to the PCUSA is an amalgam of the congregation's fear of losing its property and the pastor's fear of losing pensions and benefits. A sticky worldly brew indeed. Praise God that your Session and the Kirk's leadership was willing to risk "stuff" for much more important matters. It's tough to let goods and kindred go.<br /><br />May God continue His Blessing of the Kirk and of the decision you all made to go where God leads.<br /><br />Your Brother in Christ,<br />Derek SimmonsAnonymousnoreply@blogger.com