tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-29364304.post115835042415280245..comments2023-04-12T04:13:00.415-05:00Comments on Tom's Thoughts: Listen to What's Being PreachedTomGrayhttp://www.blogger.com/profile/06578393509662485657noreply@blogger.comBlogger31125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-29364304.post-1159148988098753262006-09-24T20:49:00.000-05:002006-09-24T20:49:00.000-05:00Description of Ad Hominem Tu QuoqueThis fallacy is...<I>Description of Ad Hominem Tu Quoque<BR/><BR/>This fallacy is committed when it is concluded that a person's claim is false because<BR/>1) it is inconsistent with something else a person has said or<BR/>2) what a person says is inconsistent with her actions. This type of "argument" has the following form: <BR/><BR/><BR/>Person A makes claim X. <BR/>Person B asserts that A's actions or past claims are inconsistent with the truth of claim X. <BR/>Therefore X is false. <BR/><BR/>The fact that a person makes inconsistent claims does not make any particular claim he makes false (although of any pair of inconsistent claims only one can be true - but both can be false). Also, the fact that a person's claims are not consistent with his actions might indicate that the person is a hypocrite but this does not prove his claims are false.</I><BR/><BR/>I had to look it up.<BR/><BR/>You are correct - I am not invalidating the argument about following beliefs in the Bible - I am pointing out the hypocrisy of the "pick and choose" form of "Biblical inerrancy" followed by evangelicals today.<BR/><BR/>Some of the Levitical code still applies, but not all.<BR/><BR/>Jesus makes statements about divorce, but they are not strictly followed.<BR/><BR/>Paul is pretty strong in his words against the ordination of women, but yet evangelicals ordain women.<BR/><BR/>I do NOT believe in the inerrancy of what today is called the Bible. That is for one reason - it has been distorted over time through translation and editing. Each translation has added the translator's bias.<BR/><BR/>Only with true back to original text in the original language can the original meaning begin to be understood. However, we don't even HAVE the original for parts of the Bible. <BR/><BR/>The best way to get as close as possible to the original intent is to see the common threads throughout the Bible. A chaplain that I know calls this the "music behind the words" (though she's talking about is generally betweeen two people). Is the message in a particular passage:<BR/>a) contradicted elsewhere in the Bible?<BR/>b) supported elsewhere in the Bible?<BR/>c) consistent with the general teachings of the rest of the Bible?<BR/><BR/>If you give me an untainted original (and help me translate it - I am just a layperson and haven't learned Greek or Hebrew), then we can look at it together. But you can't. It doesn't exist any more.Mark Smithhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/06744333045874641836noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-29364304.post-1158969100607966862006-09-22T18:51:00.000-05:002006-09-22T18:51:00.000-05:00Eric H,If you believe the Bible does teach against...Eric H,<BR/>If you believe the Bible does teach against dancing, etc., please defend your answer with scriptural quotes.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-29364304.post-1158959537017950332006-09-22T16:12:00.000-05:002006-09-22T16:12:00.000-05:00I don't think that Mark Smith believes in the auth...I don't think that Mark Smith believes in the authority of the Bible, I am willing to be corrected on this. I also may be mistaken, but his arguments may be properly classified as Ad hominem tu quoque. As with all Ad hominem arguments, this is a logical fallacy and is rejected from scientific and legal debate.<BR/><BR/>I bring this up because I have seen what I believe Ad Hominem tu quoque used on this and other blogs. Hopefully by pointing out and analyzing what was said, we can raise the discourse to a higher level.<BR/><BR/>Note: If this was used as a "you-too" version of tu quoque, it is an admission of wrong doing and uses the "two wrongs make a right" fallacy. Which is, in effect, an addmission of wrong doing by whomever the writer is trying to defend!Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-29364304.post-1158956856544214812006-09-22T15:27:00.000-05:002006-09-22T15:27:00.000-05:00NO, if that were true, we'd never have preached ag...NO, if that were true, we'd never have preached against:<BR/>- ordained women<BR/>- interracial marriage<BR/>- dancing<BR/>- drinkingEbscerhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/06266235668412132764noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-29364304.post-1158951507479817932006-09-22T13:58:00.000-05:002006-09-22T13:58:00.000-05:00If that were true, we'd still be preaching against...If that were true, we'd still be preaching against:<BR/>- ordained women<BR/>- interracial marriage<BR/>- dancing<BR/>- drinking <BR/><BR/>I'm hard pressed to find the above in the Bible as core beliefs. Where in the Bible does it discuss the above? Paul teaches against drunkeness and leading others astray, but there it ends. I think you will find the above "our" interpretations...now let's talk about some core beliefs that Jesus stated such as that he is ...the way, the truth, and the light and the only way to the Father is through Jesus.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-29364304.post-1158932689922027392006-09-22T08:44:00.000-05:002006-09-22T08:44:00.000-05:00I suppose that if the beliefs of the church were t...<I>I suppose that if the beliefs of the church were truly based on the Bible, there wouldn't be a "pendulum" action. That's the difference between a house built on a rock and one built on sand.</I><BR/><BR/>If that were true, we'd still be preaching against:<BR/>- ordained women<BR/>- interracial marriage<BR/>- dancing<BR/>- drinkingMark Smithhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/06744333045874641836noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-29364304.post-1158806883534400972006-09-20T21:48:00.000-05:002006-09-20T21:48:00.000-05:00I suppose that if the beliefs of the church were t...I suppose that if the beliefs of the church were truly based on the Bible, there wouldn't be a "pendulum" action. That's the difference between a house built on a rock and one built on sand.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-29364304.post-1158773534825432352006-09-20T12:32:00.000-05:002006-09-20T12:32:00.000-05:00OK, so from the point of view of 40 years ago, the...OK, so from the point of view of 40 years ago, the PCUSA is more liberal.<BR/><BR/>From the point of view of 20 years ago (in my opinion) it's more conservative.<BR/><BR/>It's a pendulum, folks. It's just hard to see because the pendulum is in a moving car (the movement of the car being the continual Reform of our beliefs). From the outside it looks like the movement is mostly in one direction. From the inside, it's back and forth.Mark Smithhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/06744333045874641836noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-29364304.post-1158769658710073772006-09-20T11:27:00.000-05:002006-09-20T11:27:00.000-05:00Ok. We can use abortion as an example. The positi...Ok. We can use abortion as an example. The position of the PCUSA in 2006 is far to the left of the position of the PCUS/UPCUSA in 1960. Back then Presbyterians said you shouldn't kill babies. Now we say its ok as long as you think really, really hard about it.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-29364304.post-1158767006190224822006-09-20T10:43:00.000-05:002006-09-20T10:43:00.000-05:00The PCUSA growing more conservative?? I think what...<I>The PCUSA growing more conservative?? I think what you are noticing is a spirited but belated rear guard action of a decidedly minority group to slow down the PCUSA's continuing march to conform herself to this world.</I><BR/><BR/>Speaking as someone who spent 15 years away from the church, YES.<BR/><BR/>The PC(USA) is significantly more conservative now then when I left in the late 80's.<BR/><BR/>I guess you have to be outside the system to see the big change, as opposed to being inside the system and missing the little changes (the series of which IS the big change).<BR/><BR/>You need an example? Abortion. Try to imagine the 1990 General Assembly passing a statement that recommends any restrictions on abortion.Mark Smithhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/06744333045874641836noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-29364304.post-1158761927500810632006-09-20T09:18:00.000-05:002006-09-20T09:18:00.000-05:00"I've watched our dear denomination grow more and ...<I>"I've watched our dear denomination grow more and more conservative every year when it comes to some, though not all, issues."</I><BR/><BR/>The PCUSA growing <I>more</I> conservative?? I think what you are noticing is a spirited but belated rear guard action of a decidedly minority group to slow down the PCUSA's continuing march to conform herself to this world.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-29364304.post-1158690020380094632006-09-19T13:20:00.000-05:002006-09-19T13:20:00.000-05:00Dear spouse of a PCUSA pastor and everyone else,I ...Dear spouse of a PCUSA pastor and everyone else,<BR/><BR/>I know what you mean about feeling trapped. I've been in the PCUSA and its predecessor denominations my whole life. I was confirmed in a Union UP/PCUS five years prior to the 1983 Reunion. Most of my ministry has been in small membership churches. We, who don't have the resources of The Kirk and other large congregations, shake in our boots every time the "big boys" bellow their disagreements. As I stated in a blog response last month, I don't have a 2700 member corporation to hire me back if I lose my ordination. I've also had a COM come after me on trumped up charges, and it isn't fun.<BR/><BR/>Now here's the kicker: I'm a moderate liberal. I've watched our dear denomination grow more and more conservative every year when it comes to some, though not all, issues. I'm still waiting to see evidence of the liberal takeover I'm reading so much about on this blog. As far as I can see, it ain't happenin'.<BR/><BR/>I understand that some Presbyterians perceive things differently, and I respect that. I'm reminded, and I remind everyone, that the property provisions now being discussed have been part of the PCUSA constitution since 1983. There's nothing "cloak and dagger" about it. It's been out in the open for nearly 25 years.<BR/><BR/>What I see at issue is the importance of treating each other respectfully during this difficult time. We need to make sure that ministers don't have to choose between feeding their families and maintaining their integrity. We need to calm the fears of congregations that have been incited by inflammatory speech (from conservatives and liberals alike). We need to recognize that all "sides" (and I think there are more than two) are trying to be faithful to our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ.<BR/><BR/>Can we step back and take a breather? With all the hubbub about recommendation 5 from the PUP report, we're hearing precious little about the first 4 recommendations that call the denomination to gracious dialogue and discernment. Will those who want to leave the denomination be willing to sit down in conversation with those who want to stay? I'm not talking about advocacy group "talking heads" meeeting with denominational "talking heads"; I'm talking about the average folk, the people in the pews, the pastors of small and medium sized congregations, the families of our clergy. Can the likes of "little ol' us" get together, each in our particular presbyteries, outside of "formal" meetings, and prayerfully open ourselves to the Spirit's leading in order to formulate gracious and pastoral solutions to this mess?<BR/><BR/>Faithfully yours in Christ,<BR/>MarkAnonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-29364304.post-1158673382735178612006-09-19T08:43:00.000-05:002006-09-19T08:43:00.000-05:00The attorney's advice to "negotiate a settlement" ...The attorney's advice to "negotiate a settlement" with the presbytery might make sense from a financial standpoint, but I selfishly hope that you and the Kirk follow this process through without doing that. Most of the churches in PCUSA are small - and cannot afford attorneys or to buy their property back from presbytery. Nor can their pastors afford the risk of losing their ordination since there are no financial resources available to support their families. So they feel trapped. Just as the officials in Louisville intend. We need some leadership from churches like the Kirk to either "fix this denomination" (which I think is impossible) or to take us to either the two synod model or totally out of PCUSA - but in a group!<BR/>Thank you for your courage - we are praying for all of you.<BR/>I apologize for being anonymous - but I'm the spouse of a PCUSA pastor - and the COM is already coming to call...Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-29364304.post-1158611895130768562006-09-18T15:38:00.000-05:002006-09-18T15:38:00.000-05:00As Paul Welch said in such a forthright manner, if...As Paul Welch said in such a forthright manner, if Jesus is not the Messiah that He claims to be then why did He come to this earth and why has history revolved around His very being.<BR/><BR/>Tom, hang in there. You are a tough one that God has used because of your faithful relationship with His Son. I know you have a passion to see that all come to a loving relationship with Jesus, even all of those anonymous ones.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-29364304.post-1158611227058038112006-09-18T15:27:00.000-05:002006-09-18T15:27:00.000-05:00Hi Meghan, I read your sweet and thoughtful comm...Hi Meghan, <BR/> I read your sweet and thoughtful comments and wanted you to know (in case you don't already) you can listen to the sermons now online. You'll find them under "Kirk Audio Files" on the home page. Thanks again for the positive remarks!<BR/><BR/>Janna GeigerAnonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-29364304.post-1158556071802930112006-09-18T00:07:00.000-05:002006-09-18T00:07:00.000-05:00Tom, It's suprising to me how many individuals pos...Tom, <BR/>It's suprising to me how many individuals posting here seem to feel that you are posting your own opinions whereas you are actually stating points directly from scripture. It's about time they realize that they don't have a problem with you but disagree with what Jesus stated in the New Testament. Although, many are looking for excuses to believe otherwise, Christ's words are pretty clear. I guess the question is if one disagrees with the Bible, do they feel they are in error or do they believe the Bible is in error. I would like to see those who disagree with Christ's statement that he is the only way to eternal life to explain why he stated it incorrectly. If others feel that your statements are close minded, then possibly they feel Christ was close minded also. I personally feel he came to earth to show us the way to the Father. If not...why did he even come to earth?? Was he here just to give us some pleasant stories?Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-29364304.post-1158546158772372452006-09-17T21:22:00.000-05:002006-09-17T21:22:00.000-05:00Pastor Gray,When I joined the PCUSA, I went throug...Pastor Gray,<BR/><BR/>When I joined the PCUSA, I went through the confirmation class, and, at the end, had to write what I believed. I wrote something like that I believed in God, and the teachings of Christ, but I did not know if Christ was the son of God, but would do my best to lead a good life...<BR/><BR/>I was accepted as a member of the church, and this was in the 1970s.<BR/><BR/>I really wouldn't have minded if they said I wasn't ready to join the church. I knew I didn't qualify. I was honest.<BR/><BR/>God, though, was working in my life and my first recollection of His direct involvement was meeting my future wife in 1983.<BR/><BR/>-------- <BR/><BR/>For anonymous who asked: "Please enlighten me. Is the Kirk's way the only way?" You can visit the PCUSA website and see what the PCUSA believes at http://www.pcusa.org/oga/constitution.htm.<BR/><BR/>Here is what the PCUSA believes: <I>"Effectual calling is the work of God's almighty power and grace, whereby (out of his free and especial love to his elect, and from nothing in them moving him thereunto) he doth in his accepted time invite and draw them to Jesus Christ, by his Word and Spirit; savingly enlightening their minds, renewing and powerfully determining their wills, so as they (although in themselves dead in sin) are hereby made willing and able, freely to answer his call, and to accept and embrace the grace offered and conveyed therein. <BR/><BR/>All the elect, and they only, are effectually called; although others may be, and often are, outwardly called by the ministry of the Word, and have some common operations of the Spirit, who, for their willful neglect and contempt of the grace offered to them, being justly left in their unbelief, do never truly come to Jesus Christ. </I>Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-29364304.post-1158537351288774222006-09-17T18:55:00.000-05:002006-09-17T18:55:00.000-05:00Can I say "WOW" too? Pastor Gray shares his opinio...Can I say "WOW" too?<BR/> Pastor Gray shares his opinion here and there are many who unload their anguish on the man! I must admit that I do not agree with some of the Pastor's positions, however for the sake of understanding we MUST create dialog and discussion in a non threatening and peaceful manner. It amazes me how some can lose a tactful approach shielded behind an "Anonymous" identity.Mr. Ehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/04598130750174045996noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-29364304.post-1158532129799034712006-09-17T17:28:00.000-05:002006-09-17T17:28:00.000-05:00Another anonymous (do you have a name?)I think I s...Another anonymous (do you have a name?)<BR/>I think I see the problem here. I am not saying the person I first quoted is not a Christian--I think that person is. It is the person in the last quote to whom I am speaking when I say "stay home." Sorry, I needed to be clearer.<BR/>TomTomGrayhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/06578393509662485657noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-29364304.post-1158526894484998922006-09-17T16:01:00.000-05:002006-09-17T16:01:00.000-05:00Some who CALL themselves Christians? Wow...Once ...Some who CALL themselves Christians? Wow...<BR/><BR/>Once again the question of "whose interpretation is the correct one" has been avoided. You are talking in circles. I want to know if someone who doesn't believe the EXACT interpretation that the Kirk teaches will make it to heaven. <BR/><BR/>The Kirk has many women involved in leadership positions in the church. I think that is wonderful. I know a church 20 miles north that agrees with you on the homosexual issue, but does not allow any women to lead ANYTHING. This church even hired a song leader for ONE Sunday because the male leader was ill. They would not allow any of the woman backup singers to lead. What about this church? Do you draw the line in the sand here? Where exactly is the line?Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-29364304.post-1158519328390474242006-09-17T13:55:00.000-05:002006-09-17T13:55:00.000-05:00Dear anonymous (boy, there are a lot of you),I don...Dear anonymous (boy, there are a lot of you),<BR/>I don't believe that what the Kirk believes is exclusively right. I believe that the Bible is exclusively right. Jesus is the one who said, "no one comes to the Father, except through me."<BR/><BR/>Some who call themselves Christians take issue with this, but doing so is taking issue with the basic issue of Christianity: belief that Jesus is the Messiah, the Son of God, through whom <B>alone</B> we find salvation.<BR/><BR/>The original poster sounds pleasant, but he is telling us that, as he made his affirmation of faith, he lied to get into the church: "I think I mumbled something or other...." It is such a person I'm suggesting stay home. <BR/><BR/>Such a person is not a Christian, Such a person is not even a seeker. Such a person, by equivocating on the essential of faith, is ultimately dangerous to the congregation.<BR/>TomTomGrayhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/06578393509662485657noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-29364304.post-1158508727534989462006-09-17T10:58:00.000-05:002006-09-17T10:58:00.000-05:00"If that's all you choose to believe, stay home. S..."If that's all you choose to believe, stay home. Sleep in. Do something more honest with your Sunday morning."<BR/><BR/>I cannot believe what I am reading. I am dumbfounded that a minister could be so nasty. The post that elicited this response was not angrily written. I am disappointed that Pastor Gray has taken yet another step to discourage people from coming to his church.<BR/><BR/>What is most baffling is the undertone that the Kirk's interpretation of scripture is the only one that will move us to the next life. There are many things in Christianity that are black and white (God loves us, we are to love one another etc.). But, for many people, a red flag goes up when it is suggested that "our way is the only way." The scariest thing about conservatism is that the norm is to try and find black and white answers for everything. It is simply not possible.<BR/><BR/>It is obvious that the author of the original post is a Christian. It is even more clear that the author loves the Lord. There are many good points made regarding Paul and his letters. And an even better argument regarding "if you accept some of it you have to accept of all of it." There are many things in the Bible that Kirk members would NEVER do. Nor any other Christians. Are we REALLY following EVERYTHING the Bible says? If you believe you are, then you are fooling yourself. If there are things we would NEVER do, doesn't that leave some room for interpretation? You say to listen to another preacher and see if his message "matches" scripture. Would that be your interpetation of matching, mine or his? Is it not possible that all three if us might see it with slight variations? At that point don't we all 3 try to listen to each other "openly"? Then we can take what we have and do what we believe God wants us to do. Are 2 of us officially on the "wrong path"?<BR/><BR/>I know this is an old argument. But do you think people that don't believe EXACTLY the way you want them to will not survive judgement day? There is simply not a black and white answer for everything. That's what grace is all about. We do the very best we can to follow God's plan not fully knowing if we are absolutely on target. As the author said, "God is much bigger than any of our understandings of God"<BR/><BR/>Please enlighten me. Is the Kirk's way the only way? There are millions of Christians who might not see eye to eye with you on every issue. Are they in trouble? Is eternal life still theirs? Do you think that even those who "listen" to your sermons fully understand the message EXACTLY the way you did when you prepared it? You are a well-studied and intellectual person. But, NOBODY is capable of fully reaching everyone in their audience at the same level. You have very obviously isolated those of us in the cheap seats. YOUR MESSAGE IS CLEAR: SOME US MUST NOT BE SMART ENOUGH TO GET IT. And you have just showed us the door.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-29364304.post-1158457678547880752006-09-16T20:47:00.000-05:002006-09-16T20:47:00.000-05:00Anonymous:I am an attorney but I am not licensed i...Anonymous:<BR/><BR/>I am an attorney but I am not licensed in Oklahoma and do not possess even cursory knowledge of the statutory or common law of Oklahoma relating to real property. That said, I have litigated several title disputes in a couple of states between breakaway congregations and national denominations. In all instances, the national denomination (either PCUSA or the Episcopal Church) prevailed overwhelmingly. The vast majority of congregants supporting breaking away from the national denomination were literally removed from the premises and a relative handful of congregants took over the property.<BR/><BR/>My completely unsolicited (and probably unappreciated) NON-legal advice would be for the Kirk of the Hills to negotiate a purchase of the property from the Presbytery / PCUSA. The national denomination runs the real risk of looking petty if it doesn't let the real property go really cheap based upon the overwhelming vote of the congregation who contributed the vast majority of the monies used to secure or improve the property.<BR/><BR/>A HINT: If you want to buy the property really cheap, cut way back on the anti-PCUSA rhetoric on this board and elsewhere. You really can't negotiate in good faith with folks you are attacking as "evil," " sinful," etc.<BR/><BR/>If you don't want purchase the property really cheap, litigate. You may regret that option though.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-29364304.post-1158448962255990692006-09-16T18:22:00.000-05:002006-09-16T18:22:00.000-05:00Hey Mark, I'm alway grateful for (a good) surprise...Hey Mark, I'm alway grateful for (a good) surprise. I agree with what you've said. My problem is with the person who has heard and rejected the Gospel, but stays in for other reasons.<BR/>TomTomGrayhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/06578393509662485657noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-29364304.post-1158448342369556742006-09-16T18:12:00.000-05:002006-09-16T18:12:00.000-05:00Tom,This may surprise you, but we mostly agree on ...Tom,<BR/><BR/>This may surprise you, but we mostly agree on this one.<BR/><BR/>People who are not ready to profess their beliefs about Christ (ie. answer the constitutional questions for members) should not be members. And they should not lie in order to gain member status.<BR/><BR/>Where we slightly disagree is in your statement "If that's all you choose to believe, stay home." The Spirit CAN work in people outside the church, but IN the church it's so much easier where there are other believers to work THROUGH.<BR/><BR/>I'd rather have an non-believer on the membership rolls that have a potential believer feel excluded.Mark Smithhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/06744333045874641836noreply@blogger.com