tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-29364304.post115773055431639557..comments2023-04-12T04:13:00.415-05:00Comments on Tom's Thoughts: Hate MailTomGrayhttp://www.blogger.com/profile/06578393509662485657noreply@blogger.comBlogger10125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-29364304.post-1157861518338704802006-09-09T23:11:00.000-05:002006-09-09T23:11:00.000-05:00"These types of hate mail are not political respon..."These types of hate mail are not political responses. They are not 'liberal'."<BR/><BR/>I can only speak for myself when I respond to this, but I have a feeling this is the case with many. When I speak of "liberals" in the church, I do not mean in the political sense. Liberal can also mean "lacking moral restraint" and "not bound by orthodoxy". Those are what I am referring to. The fact that they are usually liberal in the political sense as well, is merely coincidental. <BR/><BR/>"Conservative Judaism: Sea Change is Foreseen: Panel may allow openly gay rabbis"<BR/><BR/>One of my good friends is Jewish. She is not observant, but her parents are, and about a year ago they left their synagogue because they were getting tired of the politics, and joined what would be the equivalent, in Christianity, of a "Home Church". <BR/><BR/>They don't really know what to call it, because it's not a temple, and it's not a synagogue. So they basically call it a "Religious Group". But they meet every week for a Shabbat service, as they would do in a larger congregation. But it sounds it's more traditional. They read the scriptures in Hebrew so her parents are learning it (and I get the feeling that they feel like they're having to do a bit of "catch up"). I think it's brought them closer to the traditions of Judaism, and been much more educational. <BR/><BR/>Up until then, I didn't know that there was a problem. But it makes sense. They don't have Jewish denominations, but their congregations can be so large (and so far apart, distance-wise), I can see it being a major problem if the one nearest you is getting out of control. <BR/><BR/>G.A.C.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-29364304.post-1157824263774244592006-09-09T12:51:00.000-05:002006-09-09T12:51:00.000-05:00Tom:Perhaps the unfortunate type of hate mail you ...Tom:<BR/><BR/>Perhaps the unfortunate type of hate mail you received should not be characterized as "liberal". The writer may have been a liberal, but the hate is something else. <BR/><BR/>The fact is that there are those who hate those of us who believe in the one true church and in the unique, atoning sacrifice of Jesus. That hate is sin. That sin comes from Satan. It is Satan that has made the PCUSA behave as it does toward those who love Christ.<BR/><BR/>These types of hate mail are not political responses. They are not "liberal". They are the responses of Satan... evil... sinful ramblings out to destroy the peace and unity of the greater Holy catholic (small "c") church, while trying to prop up a dying apostasy, one which was directed by Satan, and one for which those within and outside of the PCUSA's organization should pray... pray for the institution's repentence, its return to Christ, to His Word, and for its renewal in the Holy Spirit. <BR/><BR/>The PCUSA cannot do this on its own. It needs the power of the Holy Spirit. Wheter one leaves or one stays, one should be in prayer for the institution and those left behind, whether there by choice, by conviction, or by ignorance.<BR/><BR/>Just because the PCUSA leadership and structure is decidely politically "liberal" and perhaps "marxist" at most times does not make the church or its remaining members sinful in and of itself. Nor does it make it Apostate. The sinfulness is from creation and the apostasy is from Satan.<BR/><BR/>What IS sinful and does make the PCUSA apostate is:<BR/><BR/>-the behavior of the Godless oppressive leadership in dealing with substantial minorities in the heirarchy<BR/><BR/>-the prideful arrogance of the leadership in its disdain for the many faithful members<BR/><BR/>-the "secret" and unpeaceful tactics of those in power to threaten and suppress evangelicals<BR/><BR/>-the schismatic gloating of those who feel they have won a great victory for liberation theology by denying the Word, the Holy Trinity, Christ's Holy bride and the Great Commission. <BR/><BR/>-the denial of Christ's unique role in Salvation by embracing universalism<BR/><BR/>-suing individual elders in secular court in disobedience of the scriptures<BR/><BR/>-the corruption of the Word by reading of other texts as Holy in His house<BR/><BR/>-the worship of idols of all kinds (including Sophia)<BR/><BR/>None of these sinful behaviors are decidely "liberal". They are not political. They are simply Godless acts of Satan presence. These are the key issues which must be confronted by the church. These are the truly divisive things that have occurred in the last 30 years.<BR/><BR/>Sinful application of totalitarian Marxism, support of terrorism and mass destruction, and unbridled sexual liberation are just symptoms of the sinfulness for which each of us are called to repent. We ALL have sins like these in our heart. Only Christ can save us! <BR/><BR/>Stand strong in the Lord and come out from among them. Do not be unequally yoked with non believers. <BR/><BR/>Bob SmithAnonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-29364304.post-1157806522528660192006-09-09T07:55:00.000-05:002006-09-09T07:55:00.000-05:00Mark wrote, "Please know that the majority of libe...Mark wrote, "Please know that the majority of liberals do not think or act this way. Your actions have drawn the attention and criticism of extremists."<BR/><BR/>Maybe my own experience is tainted because the liberals who <I>do</I> "think or act this way" are so loud they <I>seem</I> like a majority. Things I've read over the years in the Witherspoon <I>Network News</I> and the <I>More Light Update</I> echo the same sentiments as the letters Tom reports. If you want denominationally-sponsored publications, see as examples <I>Church and Society</I> or <I>Horizons</I>. I've heard and read these sorts of things in Middle Governing Body reports and meetings. And these are certainly not "fringe elements" in the PCUSA.<BR/><BR/>One time I had finally had enough. After one every enthusiastic denunciation of corrosive influences in the church and society -- I think it was at a synod meeting -- I privately approached the staff and said how personally hurt and offended I was by the comments. <BR/><BR/>"Oh, I didn't mean you personally," the person said. "I was speaking about what they're like generally." But <I>they</I> were not present at the meeting, just me, and all those who decided "Yeah, it hurts, but what are you going to do about it; it's just part of being in the PCUSA…"<BR/><BR/>Maybe, Mark, the majority doesn't feel this way. But sometimes, I have to admit, it feels like they do.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-29364304.post-1157762350785379432006-09-08T19:39:00.000-05:002006-09-08T19:39:00.000-05:00sure dillusional is a word...the definition is som...sure dillusional is a word...the definition is someone that craves pickles...!?!Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-29364304.post-1157760941776684042006-09-08T19:15:00.000-05:002006-09-08T19:15:00.000-05:00"Maybe you need 'choir bait'."I can just see it. ..."Maybe you need 'choir bait'."<BR/><BR/>I can just see it. <BR/><BR/>"Here, choir choir choir . . . ggggooooooooooooddddd choir."<BR/><BR/>(Got to wipe the tears of laughter from my face).<BR/><BR/>I have been in many choirs, and I love choirs. But ANY group, in the church or anywhere, can get so weird about this kind of stuff. ("Artists" are the worst though).<BR/><BR/>Good to see you know and are willing to acknowledge your limits though, Tom (you "megalomaniac", you :-p). <BR/><BR/>G.A.C.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-29364304.post-1157758822592717792006-09-08T18:40:00.000-05:002006-09-08T18:40:00.000-05:00Dear Tom,Even though I don't agree with your posit...Dear Tom,<BR/><BR/>Even though I don't agree with your position, or with some of your tactics, or with how readily you call liberals apostate, I'm shocked that anyone would cast aspersions on your mental health and the intelligence of your congregation. It grieves me that people would stoop so low.<BR/><BR/>Please know that the majority of liberals do not think or act this way. Your actions have drawn the attention and criticism of extremists.<BR/><BR/>I will not apologize for them, any more than I would expect you to apologize for the comments of extremist evangelicals. Try as we might, neither you nor I have control over the extremists. God will find a way to deal with them.<BR/><BR/>I pray for you, your family, the staff, and the congregation. I pray for EOP and the PCUSA GA leadership. I pray for the EPC. May God bless you all with a pathway to peace.<BR/><BR/>Yours in Christ,<BR/>MarkAnonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-29364304.post-1157746457006255692006-09-08T15:14:00.000-05:002006-09-08T15:14:00.000-05:00Okay, the English professor in me cannot let this ...Okay, the English professor in me cannot let this stand:<BR/><BR/>It's "delusional" minion.<BR/>"Dillusional" is not a word.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-29364304.post-1157742800454480992006-09-08T14:13:00.000-05:002006-09-08T14:13:00.000-05:00Pastor Tom,I first heard of the PCUSA at least 20 ...Pastor Tom,<BR/><BR/>I first heard of the PCUSA at least 20 years ago. I knew of the nonsense that they were debating. Frankly when I heard that you were a part of the PCUSA a few months back I was absolutely shocked. I just could not believe that someone that was so Bible based could be a part of that denomination. I realized that you must be a very patient man. After the Bible haters became the majority I knew that your decision to leave would be quick.<BR/><BR/>I find it interesting that the spineless writer accused you of mind control and completely insulted the intelligence of your members. I hope that person was not a member of The Kirk. If so they obviously were not there to grow in Christ.<BR/><BR/>I'm not a member of The Kirk. It did not take me listening to months of your sermons to IMMEDIATELY agree with your decision. All it took was reading ONE article about the June meeting. Worshiping God by using "Rainbow, Ark and Dove" was enough for me. How dare anyone try to rename GOD????? He can name Himself how He wants to.<BR/><BR/>We are indeed living in the last days where right is being called wrong and wrong is being called right. The very elect are being deceived. The sad thing is the fact that those in the PCUSA leadership that were indeed born again and agreeing with this trash had to plow past (1) their born again spirit, (2) the Holy Spirit's conviction AND (3) the Bible. They did this willing which to me is very scary indeed.<BR/><BR/>I know this must be a dreadful time because of all the unfortunate accusations against you. I pray that there is true freedom in your spirit knowing that you are standing firm as a strong soldier for Christ. Enter into the rest of the Lord.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-29364304.post-1157740626751435862006-09-08T13:37:00.000-05:002006-09-08T13:37:00.000-05:00It amazes me that the left, liberal, other side (i...It amazes me that the left, liberal, other side (insert your favorite adjective) always claim to be all loving and "open minded". This only applys IMHO so long as your opinion matches their's. When people like a majority of the Kirk can have a different opinion, i.e. wish to follow biblical doctrine, we are called stupid, mindless, and other lovely words. Just see all the other left posts in this blog for further example.<BR/><BR/>I just don't understand how a supposed Christian can be so down right nasty. Anyone from the left care to answer??? <BR/><BR/>If these folks truely are interested in being Christian, they sure have a funny way of showing it. Sure we clearly have a difference in beliefs, but they have gone out of their way to try and bring us down. SIGH.<BR/><BR/>P.W.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-29364304.post-1157736807800057742006-09-08T12:33:00.000-05:002006-09-08T12:33:00.000-05:00Tom,The same sorts of critics rail against Calvin ...Tom,<BR/><BR/>The same sorts of critics rail against Calvin and call him the tyrant of Geneva. They are ignorant of the facts - and, I suspect, either so nebbish that any strong leader is seen as a dictator or they are so un-nuanced that the only way they know how to lead is through volume and thus suspect that you are the same way. Calvin didn't control Geneva, though he led it well. The same is true for you and the Kirk - as their overwhelming support of the staff has shown.<BR/><BR/>However, I won't take issue with the fact that you are - in a classical sense - a "demagogue." For while it has come to mean one who leads by manipulation of popular ideas, in ancient Greece it meant a champion of the common people. And that's what you and your session did. You looked at your congregation, you looked at the polls from our church (not that we make decisions based on polls - simply that they show the majority of pew presbyterians cherish the orthodox/orthoprax faith) and you championed their cause.<BR/><BR/>We need more shepherds like you.Chris Larimerhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/01770607122746467750noreply@blogger.com